[Castlevania]

I wanted to comment, that the first sentence of that .pdf is complete bullshit, without any evidence or merit.

"World War II, it turns out , was largely planned and arranged by elite elements, primarily in the U.S.,Germany, and Britain"

Many people would not bother to think to themselves, "Hmm, I wonder what evidence their is to support this accusation?" Some would just accept that claim as fact and move on.

If you ask ANY Conspiracy fanatic, theorists, lunatic, ect..to provide you with some documentation and evidence, beyond the obligatory theorist who decides to play connect the dots with dates and times, you will be highly dissapointed with the evidence that arises.

You will find that the evidence to support crap like this is about as nonexistent as the evidence for a historical Jesus Christ.

If you want a example, of how much evidence a conspiracy theorist has to provide, when actually questioned.. feel free to visit this link.

I am not picking any TW.. but I don't think people read between the lines sometimes, in what they believe. For example, in case you miss it, there is a point in the thread where I talk about how the supposed letters of Albert Pike (a Freemason.. not THE freemason) supposedly had him giving prophecies of WW1 WW2 and WW3.. and how WW1 and 2 came to pass.

I go over two problems with these prophecies, that TW never addressed.... and for good reason.

The first problem was that this william Guy Carr fellow, didn't release his 'works' on albert pikes letters till AFTER WW1 and 2. How convienent to release a book attesting to the prophecys of albert pike after the world wars happened. Remarkebly enough, the 3rd WW.. hasn't happened yet according to plan, and russia is no longer a communistic state.

Second problem, is that in order to believe that the letters of albert pike are even legit, and the prophecies are even valid... you have to believe that Satan is a real diety who talks to men. Why? Because supposedly Satan manifested himself before Albert Pike and gave him these revelations.

I know, I am going on a rant, but i am just tired.. so very tired of people going around spreading meme's like this, that are just as dangerous, fear mongering, and without merit and evidence, as christianity.

Amazingly enough, their is no biblography, reference list, ect to refer people to certain publications or documents to research. The writer of this article simply wants us to believe what he has to say, on 'faith'.

http://myreality.chu...findpost&p=2727

And to date, TW has not backed up, supported, or refuted anything said to him on this thread. How can he? He has no evidence to do it with.

Nick

[Castlevania]

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Nick, I am sure that TW has upset you, but really, it sounds more like you have worked your self up into it.

And? Just like you worked yourself up to responding back to me getting worked up? I fail to see your point in this? Do you even understand why I am/got worked up?

It isn't TW that upsetted me. It's the message and information that upsets me. I can not stand theories that have no evidence, verification, references, documents, to support it. I fell for that 'faith' based reasoning once, in christianity, it won't happen again.

If you want to play the role of complacent onlooker.. fine. I haven't reached that point yet. And knowing how many people out their would believe this without once doubting it or looking for 'real' evidence of it being true, I can't do that. I can't just let it go and let people be duped and fooled.

We need to strive norm to replace 'faith' based thought processes, with reason based processes.

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Based upon your own comments about. The thing is that we have the option here (at least I think we do) is to say "I think-- -- World War II was all politically motivated by the arms makers just trying to control the Church and reduce the jewish population so it could not prevent world domination. " OK, so I ranted a bit and said screwball things.

I look at a lot of theorists theories the same way I look at orthodox religion. Another meme designed to intimidate, spread fear, lies, ect.

If you and your ARO are completely ok with the idea of people (not just TW) spreading around 'evidence' without any... that's your 'opinion'. I don't agree with it.

Things that are complete bullshit... or appear to be bullshit need to be called out as such.. so they can be scruntinized and evaulated.

Remember, we believe in the Principle of Scrunity and Doubt:
The Church of Reality is a doubt based religion as opposed to a (blind) faith based religion. Realists are required to doubt everything and to continually test both old and new ideas to verify that they are still true. Blind faith is irresponsible and bypasses accountability. We doubt everything because we care about reality. By doubting we accept responsibility for preserving the integrity of the truth.

and the Principle of Bullshit:
The Principle of Bullshit recognizes that things that aren't true just aren't true. It doesn't matter how many people believe it - it doesn't matter that people have believed it for thousands of years - it doesn't matter if you want to believe it - bullshit is bullshit - and if it isn't true - it isn't true. There is a difference between something being true and something being not true.



Nick

[Castlevania]

frostbyte, on May 31 2006, 04:41 AM, said:

How does "America and the New World Order" belong in Religious Debate -> Deep Thinking?

If you haven't yet noticed, there is a discussion in the "Talk to the Moderators" section regarding a new sub-forum for general politcial posts. (Where this discussion might have found a home)

I think the article belongs in Tin Foil Hat. The article is about a Global conspiracy, full of global elites, ect.

How would it not belong in tin foil hat?

I support Skinny in this decision.

Nick

[Marc]

Castlevania, on May 31 2006, 05:48 AM, said:

I think the article belongs in Tin Foil Hat. The article is about a Global conspiracy, full of global elites, ect.

How would it not belong in tin foil hat?

I support Skinny in this decision.

Nick

He posted it in Tin Foil Hat. What's the problem? Or did someone move it here?

[Plutodog]

Truth Warrior, on May 30 2006, 06:27 PM, said:

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Cool article.<IMHO> Provides some very interesting historical background material to the "discussion". I kinda doubt that EVERYONE will agree with it though. WHATEVER!

So, do you believe it's true, TW, or are you just edjicating us? Do you believe the "Elders of Zion" stuff is true or a fraud? Or is that more just conversational fodder?

Arf Arf

[Ocelot]

Truth Warrior, on May 31 2006, 02:27 AM, said:

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Cool article.<IMHO> Provides some very interesting historical background material to the "discussion". I kinda doubt that EVERYONE will agree with it though. WHATEVER!

Seems to be a brief summation of USA foreign policy in the latter half of the 20th centaury but with the addition of shadowy puppet masters. This addition is without any substantiation apart from the implied erroneous belief that nothing can happen without being planned. It offers no illumination as to why events transpired the way they did or how they would have transpired had the shadowy puppet masters left well enough alone.

We can play that game too.

"Hickory Dickory Dock" is a codeword used for an international conspiracy known as the Ebony Mask
"The mouse" (along with rats and guinae pigs known to be the historical enemy of the Mask) "ran up the clock" as it had been conditioned to do over years of planned breeding - the Mask today has strong links with vivisectionists and international pharmaceutical companies. In medieval times these links were with apothecaries and grave robbers. These mice may even have been amongst a group believed to have recovered from an experimental precursor to the AIDS virus. If so would have carried an invaluable antibody which the Mask needed to suppress, in order complete it's plans to profit from the African AIDS epidemic they have now created.
"The clock struck one" note the precise timing of the operation which is a hallmark of Mask activities "the mice ran down" this doesn't even rhyme! Proof as if more were needed that these nursery rhymes are intended to carry a hidden message.
"Hickory Dickory Dock

Also

"Three blind mice - Three blind mice " Blind due to the testing of cosmetics!
"See how they run - See how they run " More importantly who are they running from. AND WHY!!!!!
"They all ran after the farmer's wife " They sought after the Queen for protection from the Mask.
"Who cut off their tails with a carving knife"The mice were inadvertently betrayed by the Queen whose correspondence was being intercepted and deciphered by the master code breakers of the Mask.
" Did you ever see such a thing in your life as three blind mice" bored of this now - does anybody else want to take up the task of searching for supporting evidence for the existence of the Ebony Mask? Try to add in brief sniffs of the truth which can be confirmed but pad it out with anything you like so long as it's vaguely consistent and doesn't require proof, can't be checked or if required proof is absent speak volumes about the Mask's omnipotence throughout history and their superhuman abilities to produce an effective cover up.

So far I see them as an ancient sect of epidemiologists responsible for every outbreak since dead cows were first catapulted into besieged towns. They started and spread the black death (bubonic plague) They arrived in Latin America with the conquistadors to spread disease wiping out the Aztecs and Mayan civilizations. Spanish flu (after WWI) that was one of theirs. The current spread of Bird flu will not jump the species gap – it’s just a fundraiser. However I’m handing the project over interested to see where it will go. Pick up the ball and run with it - you might find out that they have origin's on another planet or that they created the Illuminati myth as flak to disguise the true consipiracy. Lets see how much evidence we can find for something I just made up.

Might be an interesting experiment

Remember the Ebony Mask is everywhere! They are ruthless and vengeful. I may have said too much alreaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!!!!!.......

[Ocelot]

Truth Warrior, on Jun 1 2006, 02:52 PM, said:

Ocelot --

Yours is one plausible, widely held, explanation and scenario ("consensus reality"). There are others that are closer to truth.<IMHO>

Thanks!

CYL

"IMHO" - In my humble opinion - a phrase often used by those who are certain in their beliefs but uncertain in the reasons for their beliefs so as to allude to a non-existent humility in the hope that the reasons for their beliefs will not be scrutinised by those too polite to attack the self effacing.

Please then excuse me for my lack of manners but I shall be scrutinising this opinion of yours humble or otherwise.

Don't get me wrong - I certainly believe in some conspiracies. For example pro-wrestling really is fixed. I'm happiest when my beliefs are plausible - believing the unbelievable is rather a strain. I'm not too bothered if my beliefs are widely held - otherwise I'd follow the consensus beliefs and join an established church. The important thing, to me, about beliefs is that they should stand up to scrutiny. This is of course an ongoing cycle of scrutiny and belief modification.

It goes without saying that there are other beliefs: either potential beliefs or ones actually held by one of the 6 billion souls with whom I share a planet. I know that my beliefs aren't accurate and complete as these are absolutes, which in this context, can be approached but never reached. However the focus here is not the destination but the journey.

So lets improve my beliefs. By which I mean lets scrutinise them so that we can then change them and end up closer to the truth.

As I'm sure you already know Occam's razor states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory.

For this reason I choose to dismiss as unlikely the idea of an international conspiracy that was planning the current US domination of the world when the seeds of WWII were being sown.

Allow me to elaborate-

I'd be a fool not to concede that there's plenty of evidence that Hitler was concerned he was being set up to fight the Russians. He signed a non-aggression pact with Russia when invading Poland and split the proceeds with them. The motivations behind this play are a matter of historical record. Yes, he was being set up to fight the Russians and when we ask ourselves "by whom?" the answer comes back loud and clear as a temporary coalition of diplomats led by the British Foreign Office.

Furthermore it's not impossible that further behind the scenes were the obscure machinations of the Illuminati, Masons, Knight Templar, Knight of Saint Columbus, Priory of Scion, Rosicrucians, the Girl Guides or the Ancient and Noble Order of the No Homers. But which group could it be? Could there be no-one at all pulling the strings of these diplomats? Could all of them have been trying to influence events? How to decide...

Well being the kinda guy I am I look at the evidence.
It seems consistent with the simple view.
It also seems consistent with a theory that says that the simple view is an illusion created by a secret organisation which controls the evidence to conceal their involvement.
It also seems consistent with a theory that says that the simple view is an illusion created by a different secret organisation with a different secret agenda which also controls the evidence to conceal their involvement.
It also seems consistent with a theory that says that the simple view is an illusion created by a yet another secret organisation with yet another secret agenda which also also controls the evidence to conceal their involvement.

Well that doesn’t help so I fall back on trusty old Occam - the simplest explanation is the one most likely to be true.

I also agree that America pursued an isolationist policy before WWII for selfish reasons and that at the end of the war were the dominant super power because of these policies.

It's easy to say after the event that their plans came to fruition but whatever the result, one party would have ended up in a better sistuation than the others. Whoever that party was, their actions could have been described as a plan but for that plan to have worked does not require the intervention of a group of power brokers with a centuries old agenda.

So where do I believe the plan came from.
Well apparently these strategies are supposed to be devised by the president and his secretaries of state as informed by the will of the people through the democratic free press. This is what I see as the simple view and it seems consistent with the evidence.
Also consistent with the evidence are many theories that the plan was devised decades before by a group guiding world events.

But which belief to choose and why?

Again I fall back on Occam’s Razor.

I get that history is written by the winners so the issues may have become muddled and obfuscated. I'm sure you acknowledge that this would be the case whether or not such a secret organisation exists

I don't see where these "elite powers" come into it. Who are they? Where did they meet? How did they communicate? What difference did they actually make?

So you see why I believe what I do – Occam’s razor. It's not a tool for determining absolute truth merely the likelihood of truth so I confess it boils down to faith.

What I'm curious about it why you believe what you do. (and what exactly it is that you believe)

I have a hypothesis...

The human mind searches for meaning. It's what it does and it's very good at it. This is partially the reason that we humans have enjoyed such unprecedented power over our environment. In this search for meaning we occasionally discern meaning even if there's none there. Nonetheless the mind gives us positive feedback that we've found meaning. We enjoy believing that we know more than we did before, that our level of comprehension of the universe has increased. If someone elaborates on that theory we can adopt those elaborations and get greater enjoyment. If someone offers an alternative theory it might be adopted or not. The mind's search for meaning will play a large part in whether we're comfortable with such an alternative theory. In the case of conspiracy theories the believer is easily convinced that they know more about the world scene than the non believer. The words and action carry a weight of superior knowledge. When confronted with the antithesis then accepting that new belief would obviously require them to change how much they believe they know about the world. Their world view would lose meaning. The superiority they felt would be lost. Whether these theories are true or not makes little difference to the day to day lives of the majority of people but for the believer to reject the theories would make a large difference to their ego.

I'm sorry that's it's not a more flattering hypothesis - I'm essentially saying that you believe the first thing you were told because I massages your ego to believe you know more than the average person and you're too weak to confront the possibility that you've been duped.

Please prove me wrong by entering debate - I fear a list of links to source material alone will not work - It's you I wish to debate with, not the people who you might have invited to tell you what to think. Besides which my reading list is quite full at them moment and I'd hate to see you cheated of proper intellectual exercise by the simple tactic of being able to swamp me.